Business of Apps Podcast

#263: Why your MarTech stack is broken with Rebecca Nackson, CEO of Notable – by Branch

What if your MarTech stack was actually working  for you instead of against you?
In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch are joined by Rebecca Nackson, CEO of Notable, to explore why most companies fail at implementation after buying marketing tools, how to enlist salespeople as strategic partners in the buying process, and the systems that separate high-growth teams from stalled ones.
From reframing a non-linear career as intentional pattern recognition ("career squiggles"), to closing the costly gap between signing a contract and actually operationalizing a tool, to acting as "connective tissue" across siloed acquisition, retention, and product teams, Rebecca shares practical insights from years spent inside Audible, iHeartRadio, Bandsintown, and now leading her own marketing consultancy.
Whether you're drowning in marketing software, trying to make sense of your growth stack, or wondering how AI and low-code tools will reshape build vs. buy decisions, this conversation offers a grounded look at moving from tool chaos to strategic clarity.
Links and Resources:
Rebecca Nackson on LinkedIn
Notable website
Branch – Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises
Today's topics include:
Why "career squiggles" beat linear planning — how adjacent roles across industries compound into pattern-recognition expertise
The implementation gap no one talks about: why vendors over-invest in sales and under-invest in helping you operationalize tools post-signature
How to flip the buying process and use vendor evaluations to simultaneously inform discovery and implementation roadmaps
Acting as "connective tissue" between siloed teams in remote-first orgs — getting acquisition and retention to share data instead of blaming each other
The test-learn-scale loop that separates compounding teams from big-swing teams, and why pre-defining success and kill criteria is non-negotiable
How AI and low-code tools are blurring the build vs. buy line — and why some tools may no longer be worth paying for
The "job to be done" mindset — why asking what's broken beats asking which tool to buy
Quotes from Rebecca Nackson:
"The ones that are succeeding, it is because they have a system."
"You can't scale what you don't trust."
"It's a career that's not a straight line. It takes all these squiggles and it makes all the sense in the world in hindsight."

#262: How AI is changing creative teams with Jen Taylor, Director of AI Strategy & Integration at Capacity Interactive - by Branch

What if AI didn’t replace your creative team, but made them more creative than ever?
In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch are joined by Jen Taylor to explore how AI is changing the way creative teams work, produce, and scale content without losing the human touch.
From breaking down the real role of AI in creative production and why it won’t replace artists, to how teams can use AI to iterate faster, test more ideas, and focus on higher-value creative work, Jen shares practical insights from the front lines of AI-driven marketing and content creation.
Whether you’re building a creative team, scaling marketing production, or trying to understand where AI actually fits into your workflow, this conversation offers a grounded look at how AI can amplify creativity rather than replace it.
Links and Resources:
Jen Taylor  on LinkedIn
Capacity Interactive website
Branch - Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises
Today’s topics include:
How teams can treat AI as a strategic collaborator rather than just a productivity tool, helping refine audience targeting, messaging, and campaign direction
 A practical three-stage approach to adopting AI: first set internal policies, then train teams on prompting and tools, and finally connect AI initiatives to measurable business outcomes
Why ethical considerations are especially important for creative and arts organizations, including questions around ownership, environmental impact, and imitation, and why intentional tool selection matters
Ways organizations can maintain consistency across teams by using AI tools trained on brand voice, tone, and mission while still keeping human review in place
The idea of “human-driven AI,” where people remain involved at every stage — from prompts to review — to maintain quality and avoid low-quality automated output
Using AI to analyze audiences and personalize messaging by testing content across different segments and allowing AI to uncover new audience opportunities and insights
Quotes from Jen Taylor:
“AI can do anything, which is overwhelming and changes how it functions as a tool. AI is a tool, but to me it feels more like a new way to work.”
“AI does efficiency, but when it comes to strategy and using these tools as thought partners, that’s where they really shine.”
“I fully believe in human-driven AI. It starts with the prompt, with your strategy and your direction, and at the end of the day the human is still responsible for what goes forward.”

#261: How AI is reshaping app store search with Dave Bell, CEO at Gummicube

Search inside the app stores is changing — and AI is accelerating that shift.
In this episode, we speak with Dave Bell, CEO at Gummicube, about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way users discover apps.
Dave explains why search is becoming more conversational and intent-driven, how natural language queries are reshaping rankings, and why the era of optimizing for a single dominant keyword is fading. As users ask longer, more specific questions — both inside the App Store and through tools like ChatGPT — ASO strategies must evolve to reflect how people actually search.
If you’re responsible for app visibility, organic growth, or ASO strategy, this episode offers a timely look at where search is heading next.Without any further ado, let’s get started.
Today’s topics include:
How AI is changing app store search behavior
Natural language queries and intent-based ranking
Why single-keyword optimization no longer works
The growing role of LLMs in app discovery
Apple opening the App Store to web indexing
What AI-driven search means for future ASO strategy
Links and Resources:
Dave Bell on LinkedIn
Gummicube
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Dave Bell
“It’s not about looking for the one keyword to rule them all. It’s not The Lord of the Rings — it’s about understanding all the ways users might search and find your app.”
“Users are really being retrained both in the way that they search for information and in terms of what results they expect from a natural search.”
“LM models are now including summaries and links to apps that best fit a user’s prompt, giving users a new path into the app stores.”
Host
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

#260: Your mobile app strategy is backward with Matt Hudson, Founder of BILDIT - by Branch

What if your mobile app strategy was holding back your entire company's growth?
In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch welcome back Matt Hudson, founder of BILDIT, to discuss why mobile-first thinking isn't just about technology—it's an organizational imperative.
From breaking down the real ROI of app investment and the myth of channel cannibalization, to preparing your ecommerce business for AI discovery optimization, Matt shares hard-won lessons on aligning teams, personalizing customer experiences, and staying ahead of LLM-driven search trends.
Whether you're scaling retail, launching a mobile strategy, or wrestling with how to compete in an AI-first world, this conversation cuts through the noise to deliver actionable insights that will reshape how you think about customer engagement across all channels.
Links and Resources:
Matt Hudson on LinkedIn
BILDIT website
Branch - Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises
Today’s topics include:
How to determine if your ecommerce business actually needs a mobile app
Why organizational alignment across teams matters more than technology
The critical difference between SEO and AI discovery optimization
How to immediately implement AI-ready data on your site today
Why React Native and cross-functional web-and-mobile teams accelerate app growth
How AI personalization works at scale using embeddings and vectors
Quotes from Matt Hudson:
“The entire org of your company, no matter how big or small, has got to be vested in the growth of the mobile app.”
“You know who doesn’t care about cannibalization? The customer. The customer. They want the easiest experience to convert.”
“If the mobile app doesn’t improve your ROAS, your return on ad spend, nobody’s going to do anything with it."

#259: Measuring real-world impact in app marketing with Dane Buchanan, Global Chief Data & Analytics Officer at M+C Saatchi Performance

How do you know if your app marketing is actually driving growth — or just generating activity?
In this episode, we speak with Dane Buchanan, Global Chief Data & Analytics Officer at M+C Saatchi Performance, about one of the most misunderstood topics in app growth: measurement.
Dane explains why clicks and impressions don’t tell the full story, why incrementality matters more than correlation, and how brands often underestimate their real ROI by ignoring offline impact. He also shares a case study where better measurement revealed that media ROI was actually three times higher than previously reported — changing the company’s investment strategy entirely.
Today’s topics include:
Why traditional media metrics fail to show true business impact
What incrementality really means in app marketing
The gap between online measurement and offline revenue
A real-world case study showing 3× higher ROI
Designing measurement systems that work in a privacy-first ecosystem
Links and Resources:
Dane Buchanan on LinkedIn
M+C Saatchi Performance
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Dane Buchanan
“In one line, incrementality is what wouldn’t have happened without the media.”
“The issue with digital attribution and clicks and impressions is that it doesn’t truly show growth.”
“If you’re only measuring online sales and ignoring offline revenue, you’re not seeing the full impact of your media — and that can lead to significant underinvestment”
Host
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

#258: From installs to outcomes in app growth with Lee Aho, Chief Revenue Officer at Perform[cb]

Scaling user acquisition has become harder to justify and even harder to predict. App teams are under pressure to grow faster while proving, with real data, that every dollar spent delivers meaningful results beyond the install.
In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talk interview where David Murphy speaks with Lee Aho, Chief Revenue Officer at Perform[cb]. Lee explains how outcome-based user acquisition models help brands move past surface-level metrics like CPI and focus instead on the downstream events that actually define quality — from registrations and deposits to trades, wagers, and long-term value.
Today’s topics include:
How outcome-based user acquisition shifts optimization from installs to the actions that truly define user quality
The role of CPI and CPE models — and why they aren’t competing approaches when paired with the right down-funnel signals
Using cross-program data and pattern recognition to drive more predictable and scalable UA performance
Why keyword conquesting remains one of the most effective ways to accelerate organic lift through paid investment
How rewarded environments and structured pilot programs can unlock high-intent users and long-term partnerships
Links and Resources:
Lee Aho on LinkedIn
Perform[cb] website
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Lee Aho
“We’re only getting paid for net new users, so all of our optimization centers around the outcomes that brands tell us are their leading indicators of quality.”
“When you’re looking at hundreds of programs, you’re not just seeing what happened — you’re starting to see what’s about to happen.”
“Brands want user acquisition that scales in a predictable way, and that’s where performance-based models can really help.”
Host
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

#257: Why saying “no” Is key to long-term success with Mick Rigby, founder and CEO of Yodel Mobile - by Branch

Welcome to another episode of How I Grew This podcast from our partner Branch – mobile attribution platform and app analytics solutions for enterprises. It covers building a sustainable agency through values-driven leadership and specialist focus.
In this episode, hosts Amanda and Adam speak with Mick Rigby, founder and CEO of Yodel Mobile, about his 20-year journey building a specialist mobile app marketing agency. From launching just before the iPhone's debut to being recently acquired by NP Digital, Mick shares insights on sustainable growth, maintaining company values, and adapting to industry changes.
Links and Resources:
Mick Rigby on LinkedIn
Yodel Mobile  website
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Today’s topics include:
Saying “no” is a strategic advantage in app growth because focus and discipline create stronger long-term outcomes than chasing every opportunity.
Yodel Mobile succeeded by committing early to being a specialist app marketing agency rather than a generalist digital services provider.
Sustainable growth comes from cash-flow discipline, profitability, and resisting the pressure to scale faster than the business can support.
Retaining talent and building a strong internal culture is a more durable competitive advantage than rapid hiring or aggressive expansion.
AI will improve efficiency and data analysis in app marketing, but human skills like judgment, empathy, and strategy will matter even more.
Quotes from Mick Rigby:
“I think there’s something really powerful in the ability to say no”
“AI, the robots… there is so much that they’re good at, but they are and they will continue to lack the human element.”
““I’m a great believer in you either have to be a specialist or a generalist."

#256: Ad quality is hurting retention & app revenue with Alex Yerukhimovich, General Manager at AppHarbr

For many app teams, ads are treated as a necessary tradeoff — something you accept in exchange for revenue. But ad quality isn’t just an ad ops issue. It directly shapes user experience, retention, and how people perceive your app.
In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talks interview where David Murphy speaks with Alex Yerukhimovich, General Manager at AppHarbr. Alex breaks down what ad quality really means in practice, why the problem is getting worse, and how bad ads can quietly undermine performance — through shorter sessions, higher churn, and even one-star reviews that impact store visibility.
From disruptive ad behaviour to scams and deceptive creatives, this conversation is a practical look at why publishers need more transparency and more control over what gets served inside their apps.
Today’s topics include:
Ad quality defined: why users see ads as part of the app experience — and blame publishers for what they see
The three major categories of “bad ads”: inappropriate content, disruptive behavior, and malvertising scams
Why ad quality is becoming a bigger problem outside gaming, especially for apps built on long-term retention
How bad ads damage monetization and growth: shorter sessions, uninstalls, churn, and one-star reviews that affect store visibility
What publishers can do about it: transparency, proactive enforcement, and real-time control instead of relying on ad networks to fix issues
Links and Resources:
Alex Yerukhimovich on LinkedIn
Appharbr website
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Alex Yerukhimovich
“Users associate any bad experience within the app with the app itself.”
“If the ads in your app are bad for your users, your app is bad.”
“Ad quality in the industry deteriorates… it’s getting worse and it requires active approach to solve it.”
Host
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

#255: ChatGPT and the future of app discovery with Dan Shabtay, Co-Founder of Z2A Digital

The way app users discover, evaluate, and even build apps is starting to shift — and large language models are at the center of that change. As AI platforms evolve beyond chat and into full ecosystems, app growth teams are facing a new set of questions around discovery, distribution, and long-term strategy.
In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talks interview with Dan Shabtay, Co-Founder of Z2A Digital. Dan explores how the emerging app ecosystem inside ChatGPT is opening the door to a new wave of app creation — from no-code tools and solo entrepreneurs to entirely new user acquisition channels embedded directly within AI platforms.
Today’s topics include:
Dan explains how ChatGPT is evolving into a platform with its own internal app marketplace, giving developers access to hundreds of millions of users without relying on traditional app stores.
Entrepreneurs and creators can now build and publish functional apps without engineering teams, fundamentally changing who can participate in app development and how quickly new ideas can reach the market.
Unlike iOS or Google Play, apps built inside LLM ecosystems immediately tap into an existing, engaged user base, reducing friction around discovery and distribution.
Traditional user acquisition isn’t disappearing, but it is shifting. Classic channels will coexist with new LLM-based acquisition models, including potential in-chat placements and AI-native ad formats.
Beyond IQ and EQ, adaptability becomes the defining skill for app growth teams navigating rapid, AI-driven change.
Links and Resources:
Dan Shabtay on LinkedIn
Z2A Digital website
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Dan Shabtay:
“It’s the most efficient infrastructure ever that has been created for entrepreneurs.”
“For me as a business owner and as an entrepreneur, it’s a gold rush.”
“AQ is adaptability… you have to be adaptable to the high-paced technology that’s going on right now.”
Host
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

#254: Subscription App Growth: Insights from the Frontlines with Shumel Lais, Co-Founder at Day 30 - by Branch

Happy 2026, everybody!
We're kicking off this year with an episode from our partner Branch - mobile attribution platform and app analytics solutions for enterprises.
Join Adam and Amanda of Branch as they sit down with Shumel Lais, a mobile growth expert with over a decade of experience, to explore the essential strategies for launching and scaling subscription apps. From setting up proper analytics and understanding payback periods to navigating iOS challenges and leveraging AI, this episode delivers practical insights for both startup founders and established app developers. Learn why immediate ROI isn't always the goal, when to start paid acquisition, and how to build a sustainable growth strategy in today's complex mobile landscape.
Links and Resources:
Shumel Lais on LinkedIn
Day30 website
Branch website
Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry
Quotes from Shumel Lais:
“In the app ecosystem, there’s traditionally two key verticals: gaming and non-gaming subscription apps. The gaming folks are typically pretty well resourced when it comes to BI and data science, but on the non-gaming side it’s lacking — and that’s really where we’ve seen the opportunity.”
“There are a lot of really exciting things possible with data science and machine learning. The question is how good we can get the signals that feed these black-box algorithms through prediction.”
“What I see with early-stage teams is a desire to recoup their investment almost immediately. That makes sense when cash is constrained, but the bigger apps grow faster because they’re willing to wait six to twelve months to get that money back."